A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

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Jeeper
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Jeeper » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:36 am

This has got to be one of the more amusing threads to read in a long while. :D

First of all; Everyone should calm down a bit. We should stop telling him to "grow up" and such, not very nice. When it comes to the stupid lib names I say; make your own libs with more serious names then, a person who makes something should be entitled to call it whatever the fuck he/she wants. Specially when you are (for the most part) allowed to modify these libraries in any way you want as long as you give credit (basically rendering your entire argument useless).

And what library exactly is it that you cant live without? Most of them are quite handy, but 99% of the time its still better to just make it yourself.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Plu » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:41 am

nd being associated with this community could potentially cost me a job. And most importantly, there's a good reason why an employer would concerned about the innuendos floating around in this community.
Maybe I'm just spoiled, but if something silly like being involved with a project that names it's libraries "SECS" was enough to get fired, I would welcome that opportunity to find a good job with open arms.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by vrld » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:02 am

Since I, like many of the other suggestively-named library authors, am not a native speaker, one could argue that these names are all but innocent mistakes. "Hump", for example, also means "small hill" or "obstacle" (which the library is supposed to help you over) and Quickie should hint that it let's you build GUIs fast. But that would of course be a lie.

More seriously: I agree with ejmr that this is a cultural problem. However, I think this is not a problem with LÖVE-culture, but a problem with culture-culture. Although there is no data to back it up, I think most of the people that are offended by these words come from an Anglo-American background. In less puritan cultures, where many members of this community have their roots, this is simply not a problem.

Case in point: Last year I applied for (and got) a job at VerySeriousResearchInstitute. In the resume I explicitly mentioned my libraries. The interviewers - one in his thirties, two in their fifties - had absolutely no problems whatsoever with that. On the contrary, the two older gentlemen even joked about it.

So, are the library names a problem? Will they deter prospective developers? Will they cost you a job? Well, it depends.
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Karai17
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Karai17 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:19 am

Very good point. I'm from Canada (despite my blunt attitude earlier), and overly-puritan, holier-than-thou attitudes like the ones presented in this thread annoy the hell out of me. If you don't like the names of the libraries, then change the names in your code! If you don't want to use the libraries because they offend you, then don't use them! Telling us to stop having our fun, or to remove our libraries form the wiki, or to have the mods start removing posts about sexual themes is just, in a word, bullshit. If you can't handle sexual innuendo, if you're offended by the English lexicon, then form my point of view... That's your problem.

Don't want your kids to use HUMP.class? Give them middleclass. AnAL too much for you? Anim8 is top notch. Can't find a replacement for a subjectively offensive word? Write your own! Show your kids how to write libraries, not just use tools other people built for them. We're not here to babysit your kids. If you want to teach them to program, then teach them to program, don't make them rely on the work of others.

The libraries I've written recently have "love-themed" names, though they are subtle enough that they aren't overtly offensive. I think a library named VaginaPenisBoobs.lua is just inelegant, and I wouldn't support it (though who am I to tell someone else what to call their project?), but some of the other tools we've discussed earlier such as hump, quickie, sti, peep, those are subtle and can't really be offensive unless you really want to be offended.

So, as I said earlier to which some folks think was too rude: Grow up. If you're offended, then be offended elsewhere. If you're willing to have an open mind and a sense of humour, than we're happy to have you here.

On a final note: All of my libraries on my GitHub are licensed under the MIT license. This means you can rename my libraries, rewrite the code, do whatever you want as long as you leave the LICENCE file in tact. Happy hacking!
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Plu
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Plu » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:34 am

More seriously: I agree with ejmr that this is a cultural problem. However, I think this is not a problem with LÖVE-culture, but a problem with culture-culture. Although there is no data to back it up, I think most of the people that are offended by these words come from an Anglo-American background. In less puritan cultures, where many members of this community have their roots, this is simply not a problem.
I was actually thinking the same thing.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Azhukar » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:45 am

I wasn't aware there were programmers not using libraries because of being insecure about some sexuality.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Karai17 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:04 am

Azhukar wrote:I wasn't aware there were programmers not using libraries because of being insecure about some sexuality.
10/10. That's all I have to say. 10/10.
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by bartbes » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:08 am

I'd like to note that most of these names are artifacts from when this community was a lot smaller. Back then nobody complained, and everyone was in on the joke. Nobody felt left out, nobody took offense because everybody knew it was just a silly joke.

That said, times have changed. We've seen before that people have asked (or even complained) about this, and I won't pretend I was too interested in their opinions back then. Nevertheless, you raised valid points and so did (sorry, I forgot your name) the person who said it only takes a few people to change this. This is undoubtedly true, since there's not that many people who have really obvious "innuendo" names (me being one of them). I'm also unsure where to go from here, I mean, it's easy to name SECS ECS, or SCS for instance, but that doesn't mean we don't have years of forum history referring to it as SECS.

Finally, I'd like to discourage censorship. So far, this community has mostly been self-regulating, and I see no reason to change that now. If people want to change their project names, they are of course welcome to. It also can't do harm to ask them to change the name. Telling them to change it is a different matter, and aside from the legal issues, I don't think it's a sign of a healthy community.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by Germanunkol » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:10 am

ejmr wrote:
Would it attract more developers? I have no data to back up this claim, but I will say yes. At the very least I would suggest LÖVE to developers more often, and if others feel the same that increases its word-of-mouth advertising.
Hm, I disagree on this point. In fact, the names are one of the reasons why I want to be and stay here. I cannot say I would leave if the names were less immature - it would still be a great framework after all - but I can say that I have made lots of advertisement for the engine becasue of the names. "Löve", along with the library names, is great advertisement because it will stick.
So I believe your argument goes both ways - some people like it, others don't. And that's totally okay. But I think it repells some people and draws others in (although looking at the number of active users here, I think the second group might be larger). The thing I DO know is that there are many other frameworks which don't have such names for their libraries. So the group of developers who is too offended by the names to use this engine can easily choose another one, but if we stop using these names then those who do like them will be left out.
Point being: I'd really like to keep you here, and anyone else who can cope with the names. But I would like to keep the queerness, un-seriousness and unprofessional-ness of the engine, because I like it and because I think it will draw in just as many users.

Btw: you can not only re-name the engines, you can also ask people to google for the full name in the future. Won't work with quickie, but with hump and secs you won't have a problem, I guess.

Other than that, I can only second what vrld said - I agree wholeheartedly.
I would even take this one step further: Why don't we have a thread "A community-culture problem with violence" and discuss the need for violence in video games. I'm very dissapointed by the fact that, again and again, talking about love, sex and similar issues is inappropriate or unprofessional, while at the same time teaching our kids how to use an axe or gun to shoot players (or zombies or whatever) is totally okay. Having grown up with computer games and movies, I knew how to handle, reload, aim and pull the trigger on a gun, long before I lost my virginity. THAT I think is a culture problem.
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

Post by rude » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:16 pm

I encourage everyone to use innuendo-free names for their libraries. Consider renaming your library if it has a particularly x-rated name (e.g. "AnAL").

I personally find such library names quite funny, and I don't care about people who *really* take offense by such trivial things. However, I *do* believe that some people might make assumptions as to the quality or future prospects of LÖVE based on that level of anti-seriousness. If an outsider is exposed to this early in their "affair" with LÖVE, they may very well assume that the whole project is almost meant as a joke, and may decide that the project is unworthy of their valuable time. The trick is to be just nonserious enough to make people remember you, but not so hardcore anti-serious that people [of certain cultures] don't give it a chance at all.
kclanc wrote:But if they find out that you endorse related projects whose names are sexual innuendos, they're going to think you're weird.
Nonsense. There is a hamburger on the front page, the forum has a pink rainbow and smiling phallic objects, and the no-game screen is a suspicious guy with sunglasses frowning in a rain of babies. I am perfectly normal, and totally safe for children of all ages.
Germanunkol wrote:But I would like to keep the queerness, un-seriousness and unprofessional-ness of the engine, because I like it and because I think it will draw in just as many users.
I agree, and I don't think you have to worry. However, I believe LÖVE and the community has more than enough "character" without the library names.

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