Gender and the LÖVE community (A Community-Culture Problem)

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Robin
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Gender and the LÖVE community (A Community-Culture Problem)

Post by Robin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:11 am

The PM I sent to Azhukar:
Azhukar wrote:How does a library name featuring sex related words discourage a female more than it discourages a male?
First of all: "male" and "female" are adjectives, not nouns, when talking about humans. Talk about "a male" and "a female", you verbally take away people's agency (their free will). Speak of "men" and "women" instead.

The main part: this is very hard for me to explain, because it is so obvious to me that it is the case. So I asked people on reddit. fishytaquitos and efmac have put things in words better than I could.
Last edited by Robin on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by slime » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:36 am

I'm a little hesitant to participate in a potentially volatile discussion thread like this, however...
Robin wrote:First of all: "male" and "female" are adjectives, not nouns, when talking about humans. Talk about "a male" and "a female", you verbally take away people's agency (their free will). Speak of "men" and "women" instead.
This feels a little over the top. "male" and "female" can be either adjectives or nouns, and for me personally what you said in your second sentence is the first time I've seen that said anywhere. It seems to me like an imposed niche philosophical view rather than what the average person actually interprets, especially in the context of what was actually said by Azhukar. Is there some other (serious and with good research) place which discusses that?
Robin wrote: So I asked people on reddit. fishytaquitos and efmac have put things in words better than I could.
I read their responses and I don't think they really hit the mark for the LÖVE community's current use of library names.
In particular:
fishytaquitos wrote:in this case, the titles are derived from heterosexual male sexualities and what those people would enjoy according to that sexuality. Heterosexual females are the 'objects' of this expression of sexuality (if the names refer to women), so obviously a woman seeing that in the community will feel 'othered' or like she's not in on the joke because she cannot relate to it on a humorous sense or through her sexuality.
What they're talking about here seems to me what vrld was saying should definitely be avoided but is not prevalent in the LÖVE community right now.


To be clear: I'm not advocating for more sexual names here and I do think there is huge gender imbalance in most game development communities as well as the entire industry. I am just not convinced the LÖVE community in particular has a larger problem with it than the average game development one. I'm definitely in favour of (non-patronising) ways of improving the situation, though.

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Azhukar
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Azhukar » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:22 am

Robin wrote:First of all: "male" and "female" are adjectives, not nouns, when talking about humans. Talk about "a male" and "a female", you verbally take away people's agency (their free will). Speak of "men" and "women" instead.
If you produce sperm, I call you a male.
If you produce eggs, I call you a female.
If you're a male human, I call you a man.
If you're a female human, I call you a woman.

I'm curious which country you attended school in, since you seem confused about basic sexual education.
Robin wrote:The main part: this is very hard for me to explain, because it is so obvious to me that it is the case. So I asked people on reddit. fishytaquitos and efmac have put things in words better than I could.
I'm still waiting for you to answer the question.

As for your "ask feminist" board comments, the closest one of them got to the subject at hand was this:
in this case, the titles are derived from heterosexual male sexualities
Which is incorrect, but at least partially addresses the question. If you feel otherwise please do provide the names which you feel fit this description.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by veethree » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:13 pm

I have a question regarding the "Gender imbalance problem". I don't really see how it's a problem. I'm not saying it's a good thing that there's mostly males in this community (or most other game developing communities), But i'm not saying it's a bad thing either. What i am saying is that it's just a thing. Just cause there's a thing people can do, Does it mean that equal amounts of males and females should do it?

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Robin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:37 pm

slime, I'll look into that. Maybe It's just that I had to deal with too many MRAs and red pillers who do use "females" in that way, even if no-one else does.
Azhukar wrote:I'm curious which country you attended school in, since you seem confused about basic sexual education.
The thing is, we're talking about humans here, not biological machines. This has nothing to do with my education.
Azhukar wrote:I'm still waiting for you to answer the question.
I have a feeling that nothing I can say will ever- satisfy you, so I'm going to stop engaging you from now on.
veethree wrote:I have a question regarding the "Gender imbalance problem". I don't really see how it's a problem.
Well, there are two sides of this. First, diversity is healthy. From personal experience (and that of Dan Harmon), things work better (and group dynamics become healthier) when the group becomes less homogeneous. Not just the LÖVE community would be well served by welcoming the other 50%, but the tech world in general.
The other side is from a feminist perspective: programmers are massively overvalued today. We are starting to wield a lot of new influence in this society. And if we allow women to be left out in this digital revolution, we risk undoing every step forward made by second- and third-wave feminism so far.
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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Azhukar » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:17 pm

Robin wrote:The thing is, we're talking about humans here, not biological machines. This has nothing to do with my education.
Fair enough, I shall respect your belief that humans are not biological machines. But I do note that you are incorrect.
Robin wrote:I have a feeling that nothing I can say will ever- satisfy you, so I'm going to stop engaging you from now on.
I accept your inability and welcome your attempt.
Robin wrote:The other side is from a feminist perspective: programmers are massively overvalued today. We are starting to wield a lot of new influence in this society. And if we allow women to be left out in this digital revolution, we risk undoing every step forward made by second- and third-wave feminism so far.
Anyone willing to invest sufficient effort can become a programmer, just like you can learn any other thing you choose.

I don't see how genetics come into play here.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Plu » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:32 pm

I don't see how genetics come into play here.
Try becoming a midwife, and you'll find out real fast where genetics comes into play.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Azhukar » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:38 pm

Plu wrote:Try becoming a midwife, and you'll find out real fast where genetics comes into play.
Please explain how it is my concern that someone chose to have a baby and now has no time to learn how to program.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Plu » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:41 pm

...

That's not what I meant. I meant you (as a guy) should try applying for a position as a midwife, and see what kind of problems you run into. Female programmers run into many of the same problems. They're not genetic, they're societal.

EDIT: do you even know what a midwife is? it's not a mother, it's someone who helps deliver babies. It's a very traditionally female profession and it's almost impossible for males to become one even though there's no reason at all for them not to be one if they want to.

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Re: A Community-Culture Problem With Gender

Post by Azhukar » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:43 pm

Plu wrote:That's not what I meant. I meant you (as a guy) should try applying for a position as a midwife, and see what kind of problems you run into.
My mistake. But I don't want to become a midwife. How does me not wanting to do a profession relate to females allegedly not being welcome to programming?

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