[Poll] Should we change projection?

The LövelyRPG project, a community initiative aiming to create an open source role playing game.

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Projection for Whiff

Poll ended at Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:23 pm

Trimetric (don't change, we voted for it before)
7
35%
Dimetric (change, change, change...)
13
65%
 
Total votes: 20

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kikito
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by kikito » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:36 am

I'm voting dimetric under the assumption that the control scheme will be keyboard-exclusive.

If the game will be also mouse-controlled, then my vote should be nil; both perspectives look ok to me, graphically speaking.

EDIT: I'm not a contributor, I'm just voting here because I can.
Last edited by kikito on Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aeacus
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by Aeacus » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:21 pm

I just registered now, so this is the first I've seen of this project, but I've always slightly preferred dimetric projection to trimetric. I don't have any issues with either though.

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Ellume
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by Ellume » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:08 am

I would prefer if the poll not only asked for dimetric or trimetric but also if the voter is contributing to the project or just giving their input. Then you get a better picture of what the people involved want, and those just giving their opinion want.

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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by giniu » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:42 pm

Ellume wrote:I would prefer if the poll not only asked for dimetric or trimetric but also if the voter is contributing to the project or just giving their input. Then you get a better picture of what the people involved want, and those just giving their opinion want.
but we want opinion! :) As it's described in out contribution guide (section about decision making in case of disagreement iirc) during such poll each user of love2d forum have equal rights to spell his/her opinion, and it will be taken into account like any other vote. Developer votes count differently only in cases of ties, it's also described in docs.

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dresb
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by dresb » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:14 pm

Some people seem to be confused with the different types of axonometric projection (isometric, dimetric, trimetric) there is a wikipedia article on the subject which includes a handy graphic for distinguishing them (I attached a smaller version).

If I'm not mistaken, from a pixel artist point of view isometric and dimetric are the simplest choices. Isometric and dimetric also have a consistent horizontal axis across the grid. It's not clear to me if you are going with pixel or pre-rendered art at this point, this choice should be made before deciding the type of grid to use IMO.
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partymetroid
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by partymetroid » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:22 pm

dresb wrote:Some people seem to be confused with the different types of axonometric projection (isometric, dimetric, trimetric) there is a wikipedia article on the subject which includes a handy graphic for distinguishing them (I attached a smaller version).

If I'm not mistaken, from a pixel artist point of view isometric and dimetric are the simplest choices. Isometric and dimetric also have a consistent horizontal axis across the grid. It's not clear to me if you are going with pixel or pre-rendered art at this point, this choice should be made before deciding the type of grid to use IMO.
I personally don't foresee having any 3D artist work with us anytime soon (so probably no pre-rendered graphics). I could (happily!) be wrong.

Though, to be honest, we don't have a dedicated graphics artist yet. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So far it seems only rhyne who wants to create graphics assets for the game; but he's discontent with the projection style.

:roll:

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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by giniu » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:28 pm

dresb wrote:Some people seem to be confused with the different types of axonometric projection (isometric, dimetric, trimetric) there is a wikipedia article on the subject which includes a handy graphic for distinguishing them (I attached a smaller version).
Well, this is exactly what I attached and said when there was the first poll, that's why this time in first post there are screen shots from actual games. I'm not aware about any game that uses isometric (is it even possible to obtain trough rotations?), so it wasn't added as an option. And oblique was ruled out for more detailed projections.

EDIT:
To obtain isometric you need to rotate around Y by 45 degrees, and then around X by alpha degrees in such way that all axes are equal, so:
\[ \cos^2 \alpha = \frac{1+\sin^2 \alpha}{2} \]

Code: Select all

cos^2(alpha)=1/2+sin^2(alpha)/2
Now because

Code: Select all

cos^2(alpha)=1-sin^2(alpha)
we need to take

Code: Select all

alpha=asin(1/sqrt(3)) (approx 35 deg)
And when we take this value, we get exactly the result on picture you posted (120 deg between all axes on projected plane, and all axes of equal length - so it's isometric).

But for such projection in game to exist, It means, there should be a scale S, such that all numbers:

Code: Select all

s/sqrt(2), s/sqrt(6) and s/sqrt(3)
are integer, and that would mean, that either sqrt(2) or sqrt(3) are rational, which isn't true. So as you can see it can be proven (by contradiction) that it's impossible to obtain isometric projection in games, when anyone tells you he played isometric game, tell him he is cheating ;)! If we make approximation (even very small one) on height, we are using dimetric already - that's why isometric did not showed up on list of projection to choose from within this poll.

Anyway, there is also good resource about projections on Google books: Practical C#: charts and graphics, pages 232--237, section titled: anoxometric projections.

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dresb
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by dresb » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:05 pm

giniu wrote:Well, this is exactly what I attached and said when there was the first poll, that's why this time in first post there are screen shots from actual games. I'm not aware about any game that uses isometric (is it even possible to obtain trough rotations?), so it wasn't added as an option. And oblique was ruled out for more detailed projections.
Ah sorry about that, I don't think I was around when that poll was taken. But you are right, isometric is actually dimetric when talking about pixel art. In the end wikipedia ended up confusing me, I blame everyone else for using isometric and dimetric interchangeably. :P

EDIT: I can barely find any example of proper trimetric pixel art outside pre-rendered images, pretty much all of the rest are actually dimetric. Which by comparison seems a lot more common (notice I didn't use "isometric" as the search term). Perhaps there is a reason for that?

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Ryne
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by Ryne » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:28 pm

Ellume wrote:I would prefer if the poll not only asked for dimetric or trimetric but also if the voter is contributing to the project or just giving their input. Then you get a better picture of what the people involved want, and those just giving their opinion want.
I agree, Instead of "Pick one of these 2" it really should have been, "what do you guys think it should be?" Then start a poll on the most common suggestions.


dresb wrote: EDIT: I can barely find any example of proper trimetric pixel art outside pre-rendered images, pretty much all of the rest are actually dimetric. Which by comparison seems a lot more common (notice I didn't use "isometric" as the search term). Perhaps there is a reason for that?
It's not easy to draw pixel art in that perspective, hence there isn't a lot of it, and to be honest, the only trimetric games out there are all "older" games. You don't see many modern games with that perspective.
@rynesaur

giniu
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Re: [Poll] Should we change projection?

Post by giniu » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:53 pm

Ryne wrote:I agree, Instead of "Pick one of these 2" it really should have been, "what do you guys think it should be?" Then start a poll on the most common suggestions.
There was such poll! Remember it is revote, people gave their opinion once already. On first poll there were 6 options to pick from, i.e. most doable in 2D options including different oblique variants. On first roll we tried to provide as much options as possible to create reasonable set of properties, for each of 10 questions we used to create the focus. This poll is based on that results (trimetric, 4 votes) and proposed by you dimetric (1vote, 2 if we count that approximated isometric is also dimetric) and people were given examples of games, linked to wikipedia picture and asked to pick one they like. It is "Pick one of these 2" because it's different type of animal, we we don't want the votes to diverge on minor options again, we want strong decision now because we talk about change to focus, base of whole concept - that's also why we haven't added "I don't care", "none" or "both".

Anyway, the turnout is good for now, we have 7 out of 20 required votes. For now it's 5-2 for dimetric - it's on for few days and we have like 1/3 of required votes already, so not bad, if this continues we might decide to end the poll earlier.

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